Best Inside Linebacker in OVAC

[Wooster87]

Not completely true, but I'll take that Leroy. And Wooster- thanks for spreading your wealth of knowledge from the powerhouse on the hill. Not the results to which I'm referring. But, please continue to enlighten me. I will bow out of this recruiting discussion-don't want fingers to cramp with all of the narratives being composed as responses.

You will not find anywhere in any of my posts where I refer to our program as the "powerhouse on the hill". If you have some personal issue with WLU, that's fine, but it is amazing that when a local program has success, people want to criticize and demean the accomplishments with immature sarcastic shots. Our opinions differ, and that is fine too. I am NOT demeaning those kids who play for small schools. I will say however that my opinion is based on experience in recruiting over the last 4 years, not just what I think the process should be. Hopefully this response was brief enough.

[Wooster87]

Remember this, think to yourself about who you think are the best payers in each sport that this valley has ever seen. Make yourself a list and I bet you will find that most of the elite came from small schools.
Track=Drummond
BBall= Hornyak, havlicek
wrestling=Bobby Douglas
Baseball=Neikros
All of these guys plus many more were small school guys. Football may be a little different but I doubt it. Who the best are is very debateable but Chuck Howley might be the answer and once agian from a very small school.

At least 7 of the 8 people you cite above were players in a different century than we are in now. I believe Drummond was from the'90's so it is more than likely all 8. When those athletes played, just about all you had were small schools. Consolidations weren't the norm, and most schools were small because they were town based, not consolidations of 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7 different schools (as is the case with Buckeye Local). There isn't any question that athletics have significantly changed since the 1950's, '60's, '70's and '80's. There isn't any comparison in the size and speed of athletes then and now. Offensive lineman today are on average 6" and 75 lbs bigger than they were then just as an example. You hear time and time again interviews where it is commonly stated that the players from those era's would have a hard time playing today, and wouldn't have been the stars today, that they were then.

[MANOWAR]

You said what I was thinking...the OVAC was pretty much all small schools up until the 70's, which is why Big Red didn't play many local teams in football.

Even today, a lot of the "big schools" in the OVAC are not very large in the grand scheme of enrollment.

[Colts76]

Well lets jsut use todays standards then, if you guys think those athletes are not worthy of comapring to today's superior quality. Joey Galloway, Ben Taylor, Davis Brothers all from Bellaire which has about 350 kids in the school. Chad Brinker is from Ferry which has about 350 kids. Stephens from Linsly which has 200 kids.
As far as competition goes, I would put WCC's schedule up aginst anybody's except Stuebenville. BTW, Steub. is a small school in the grand scheme of things. Wooster you tell me as a coach. Are you looking at kids from John marshall before kids from Steubenville? JM has 2X the enrollment, not to mention Wheeling Park being even bigger.

[birdmanjl31]

Colts76,
Do you really think WCC could play with Brooke's schedule? PHS, PSHS, Univ, Morg, WW, Steub, and Dayton Dunbar would give the Maroon Knights a little trouble. Don't ya think?

[Colts76]

I don't think PHS and PSHS were all that great last year. I think the team from DC that Central played had more top level athletes than any school on Brooke's schedule. I was at the game and it was obvious. The point here is that just because you are from a small school does not mean you cannot play. The valley is a perfect example of this. Steubenville is heads and shoulders above anyone else and they only have about 500 kids in the school. When I think of the best football players from the OVAC it seems that they alwyas come from small schools. We rearely have Div 1 kids in this area but I bet if you look, more of them come from schools with less than 600 kids than schools with more than 600. Do the research and you will see that I am right.

[MANOWAR]

Well lets jsut use todays standards then, if you guys think those athletes are not worthy of comapring to today's superior quality. Joey Galloway, Ben Taylor, Davis Brothers all from Bellaire which has about 350 kids in the school. Chad Brinker is from Ferry which has about 350 kids. Stephens from Linsly which has 200 kids.
As far as competition goes, I would put WCC's schedule up aginst anybody's except Stuebenville. BTW, Steub. is a small school in the grand scheme of things. Wooster you tell me as a coach. Are you looking at kids from John marshall before kids from Steubenville? JM has 2X the enrollment, not to mention Wheeling Park being even bigger.

I think he said their level of competition, not the actual school size. Using Big Red as an example, they play up against larger schools for the most part, and the ones that are smaller are usually private schools that draw in athletes. Even with that, if you have a Big Red running back averaging over 100 yards per game, he wouldn't normally get the nod over a Canton McKinley back with similair stats.

[Wooster87]

Wooster you tell me as a coach. Are you looking at kids from John marshall before kids from Steubenville? JM has 2X the enrollment, not to mention Wheeling Park being even bigger.

The statement I made was the LEVEL OF COMPETITION that an athlete plays against to achieve what stats they have is what is judged, not just the size of the school. To use your example above, Steubenville plays against a much stronger schedule than both JM and WP who have a number of smaller schools than them on their schedule. So, when comparing players, the evaluation is different in what the kid from Steubenville did playing Massillon who is 2 divisions bigger than Big Red, versus what he did against another DIII school who isn't as strong as Massillon. Rushing for 200 yds against a local DIII or DIV school does not carry the same weight as rushing for 200 yds against Massillon, Inkster, etc.

This isn't just my opinion. Look at the scouting services and how they rate kids, it will support what is being said. Do you honestly believe that the RB from (you name the school) who plays in Div VI in OH and rushes for 1500 yds and 20 TD's against primarily Div V and VI competition is evaluated on an equal level with the RB from (you name the school) who plays in Div I in OH and who also rushed for 1500 yds and 20 TD's against primarily Div I competition? Do you honestly believe that????

[osu92]

Wooster, I do apologize for my one thread mentioning DI schools as the ones that focus on the "level of competition" because I definitely meant ALL colleges focus on this. I'm starting to get DI "itus" being that is all we hear about!! You're past responses have been dead on! Quick true story; I was sent to watch a kid outside of Pittsburgh years back by a major college team and when I filled out my sheet on him, one of the questions asked, "Grade the level of each position on the opposition and actually the quality of their first subs that came in." That is how critical it is to see how a potential recruit stacks up against his opponents and how he will handle the next level.

I noticed a kid recently at a AAA school who had some impressive stats until they played the four best teams on their schedule and he gained about 40 total yards total! What is he going to do at the next level??

As for some of the examples, at least the ones in our recent era, there will always be a few freak athletes with superior speed that pop out and can excell anywhere. But the numbers are overwhelming across the board, sorry guys, and I played at a small school! I have to admit it, big school competition generally breeds a better equipped player for the next level.

[Colts76]

Sorry to have to disagree, but there isn't a recruiter in the country that DOESN'T look at stats. If "recruiters worth their weight" didn't look to much at stats, then why do coaches kill 100 trees running off pages of player stats to give to the coaches who are there doing the recruiting? Stats are what get you noticed in the first place, and the next question is who did those stats come against? Do you think recruiters look at the 25th ranked rusher in the conference, or the top 5 rushers?? Out of those top 5, the ones from the biggest schools will get looked at first. When they look for a QB, do they look at the kid who completed 45% of his passes for 1800 yds and 10 TD's with 6 INT's whose team may have went 8-2 in Class A(those would be your results) or do they look at the kid who completed 65% of his passes for 3000 yds, 25 TD's and 4 INT's but his team went 4-6 in AAA??? They will look at the AAA kid first EVERY TIME.

When the NFL scouts (they are "recruiters" as well) come on campus, the first thing they do is look at a players stats, then ask to see the film against our BEST OPPONENT, not the game where the player had his best performance. I would have to say that if the "recruiters" at the highest level of the sport look at stats and want to see performance against the highest level of competition we faced, then EVERYONE who recruits looks at stats and level of competition........common sense tells you that.

I came from the HS level having coached from the Jr High to Varsity level for over 17 years prior to moving up, and came with the same viewpoints as you have. Those views quickly changed over the last 4 years. Once I became involved in this side of the recruiting process, and spoke to other coaches I knew from various levels about recruiting when we would meet at the recruiting nights offered by alot of conferences, I got a quick lesson in what is actually looked at and for what reasons. I remember coming back from one of my first trips (to the DC area) my first year with over 150 recruiting videos and stacks of stats for each video thinking that every one of those kids were legitimate recruits for us. We quickly narrowed that down to about 25 based on those stats and the size school they played for. Sorry to disappoint you, but rushing for 1500 yds in Div VI or class A is NOT the same as rushing for 1500 yds in Div II, Div I, or class AAA......it just isn't. Reality is sometimes a hard pill to swallow.

The whole first paragraph says that you would look at a kid from bigger schools first. Never does it say LEVEL OF COMPETITION. Also in the last paragraph your words are "based on the size of school they played for" you also say rushing for 1500 yards in Div VI is not the same as blah blah blah. That is pretty clear how you think to me. You mention size of school 4 times in your statement but only "level of competition" once. "they will look at a AAA kid every time" Your words can come back to haunt you. BTW what position do you hold for the staff up on the hill. Just curious.

[birdmanjl31]

I don't think PHS and PSHS were all that great last year. I think the team from DC that Central played had more top level athletes than any school on Brooke's schedule. I was at the game and it was obvious. The point here is that just because you are from a small school does not mean you cannot play. The valley is a perfect example of this. Steubenville is heads and shoulders above anyone else and they only have about 500 kids in the school. When I think of the best football players from the OVAC it seems that they alwyas come from small schools. We rearely have Div 1 kids in this area but I bet if you look, more of them come from schools with less than 600 kids than schools with more than 600. Do the research and you will see that I am right.

What DC school did they play?

[cas8043]

Edison Friendship

[Colts76]

Edison freindship was not the typical DC teams that we have seen some of our valley teams play against. This is a private school and they were very skilled and big at every position. Central made a nice run at the end of the game but it was clear who the more talented team was. Centrals teamwork and knack for playing agisnt anyone no matter the size kept them in the game even thought the athleticism was not very equal.

[Wooster87]

It is generally considered when looking at the totality of the issue, that bigger schools play better competition as a whole, than the smaller schools play. Are there exceptions.....absolutely. That is why I didn't think I needed to have "level of competition" stated as many times as "size of school". I refer up to OSU92's post, I think he says it better than I obviously was able to.
Even in the section where I refer to the NFL guys coming on campus, do you really think that the kids they are looking at from the D2 schools get evaluated equally with the kids from the D1 schools? The kids from the D2 schools have to in most cases do it better in order to get more than a general look. The first thing they have to do in reality is pass the eye test of the scout before it really goes any further.

[Colts76]

The statement I made was the LEVEL OF COMPETITION that an athlete plays against to achieve what stats they have is what is judged, not just the size of the school. To use your example above, Steubenville plays against a much stronger schedule than both JM and WP who have a number of smaller schools than them on their schedule. So, when comparing players, the evaluation is different in what the kid from Steubenville did playing Massillon who is 2 divisions bigger than Big Red, versus what he did against another DIII school who isn't as strong as Massillon. Rushing for 200 yds against a local DIII or DIV school does not carry the same weight as rushing for 200 yds against Massillon, Inkster, etc.

This isn't just my opinion. Look at the scouting services and how they rate kids, it will support what is being said. Do you honestly believe that the RB from (you name the school) who plays in Div VI in OH and rushes for 1500 yds and 20 TD's against primarily Div V and VI competition is evaluated on an equal level with the RB from (you name the school) who plays in Div I in OH and who also rushed for 1500 yds and 20 TD's against primarily Div I competition? Do you honestly believe that????

Then why did you say this? The bottom line is you screwed up what you said and were called on it.
Also comapring what the NFL does and whether kids from small schools are just as good is not a fair argument. But lets use it anyway. Who are the most recent NFL players from the OVAC? I may miss a few but they are Davis, Galloway, Taylor, Drummond, Willie Clay. Probably some more but of those, they all went to small schools. When is the last time a kid from the 3 or 4 biggest schools in the OVAC played in the NFL? That is not a smart*** question I just probably missed someone. I was giving those names off the top of my head.